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#1 DJC

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:34 PM

What breedings or specific crosses have produced the best snow hounds?

#2 gibble1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

Dan...not sure of the best bloodlines but I can remember two of the best snow hounds I ever saw. The first was one that Roger George finished, and dang it, her name escapes me. I remember she needed a third win and he showed up at N. Lancaster when there was snow on the ground. Nobody else had a chance. The other was Spacht's Oreo Cookie. On bare ground both of these hounds were a bit rough (in my opinion), but put them on snow and it was like magic the way they could run when very good hounds could only stand there and watch them. Seems to me Cookie had a cross of Mr. Bill. Roger's may have been Bungalow Hill bred, it was a long time ago.

#3 Rob Kane

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:54 PM

I believe this was Roger's first field champion, FC George's Sally

We ran against her a few times with FC Kane's Irish Mist. Who had a couple wins in our local snow trials. You can see a couple common hounds in their pedigrees.

A dog that became a legend around here in snow trials was Dead Branch Slugger, if he wasn't unbeaten on snow he was damn close to it.

FC Sweet Water Luke and his sister A Bryer Patch Rosie dominated the snow trial circuit during their time, they were out of two well known snow hounds in our area.

FC Kane's Irish Beach Bum II is our brag hound on snow...he just seems be able to run regardless of the conditions.

Another hound I've recently been impressed with on snow is FC JAG's Find Em Up Nemo

If you notice all the hounds seem to go back to the same blood.

#4 John Lipko

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

For years almost all the better nasty weather snow hounds that I saw went back to Ken Burbank's Eaton Brook dogs.
A buddy of mine had decendants from Joe Parrino's Hunts Creek Ben (Eaton Brook bred) that were just amazing on the worst of conditions.
One was directly out of Ben and Mill River Molly McFall. Shiloe could really smell it.
Another was out of a ben grandaughter Tiny Tina that Gary SLick had crossed with a Kalagha male.

They weren't really my style because they would get buried by the faster hounds on a good day and had some extra mouth but Those two males could smell it when nobody could. I saw Shiloe on minus 20 deg, on salt powder running like it was a balmy wet day

I have seen Al Slocum's dogs do it when many can't and they have a lot of this in them, also a lot of Ranger Dan influence there.
Good snow hounds in that kennel right now.

We took a big shot when we lost our Maggie Mae young last spring. She was as complete a hound as I have ever owned.
Was just approaching that stage when she could carry a hunt regardless of conditions.

Our personal best nose right now is Lackawanna Lightning Luke, Out of Al's Elvis and our Lady who again is a dog that goes back to Joe and Ken's dogs.
Luke isn't a real good trial dog, comes around too easy in a pack of fast big males but in Hunting season especially in the snow he is almost always in the truck.
A freind of ours up in very northern Vermont has Luke's Littermate brother and he is his bad weather hound. Can do it when nobody else can. and he has some really well bred northern stock in his kennel including a lot of Dead Branch Slugger blood.
Billy doesn't stand out on the good days but is a go to dog when it gets bad.

I have seen a few more great ones, Jimmy Welliver in Towanda had a male "GRHBCH Jim's Smokey the Bear Beagle" that carried us in many a north woods hare hunt in the worst of conditions. We never got any really good pups out of him though despite breeding some nice bitches to him.
Smoke was Speedo and English Bobby bred mostly.

#5 gibble1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

Robbie---George's Sally came to me about ten minutes after I got out of work and down the road. I heard that Butlers Striker was an awesome snow hound, as well.

#6 Rob Kane

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:14 PM

I hope to get Holyoke's results up the beginning of next week. I looked at a lot of pedigrees this week and one thing was for certain, every dog that placed was closely related to one of those legendary snow hounds...including FC Butler's Striker. Holyoke was one of the best judged snow trials I can remember. Each pack was workes down to 6-9 hounds and pounding

#7 Goodwill

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:41 PM

John,
I put that win on FC Georges Sally at Northern Lancaster. I still remember the winners pack. It was cold, there was a light powdery snow. Like all good snow hounds Sally used her eyes to find the rabbit track, confirmed it with her nose and off she went. There were few checks and she totally dominated every dog in the winners pack.
George Edwards kennel produced FC Georges Sally who was out of FC Bungalow Hill Chico X FC Bungalow Hill Sue.
Bruce

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#8 Rob Kane

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:55 AM

I only judged Northern Lancaster once, 2003, it wasn't much snow, but it was dry and crusty and the majority of dogs had a tough time telling you it was there. It was a 13" bitch class. That winners pack pounded on snow: 1st Hunter's Creek Robin (I believe this was her second win), 2nd Willow Run Beezie (who finished in 2003), and 3rd JD's Round HIll's Mary (who finished in 2003 as well).

I had the chance to judge Beezie's half sister at Adirondack in 2005. At times it seemed like she was the only one that could smell it and definitely one of the few that knew where that check was, her name was Willow Run Glory. I believe she finished sometime in 2006.

My father and I judged a 13" Dog Class at Glendale in 2005, on 1 or more of snow crusted over with a good wind, that winners pack was awesome, on cottontail no less. There were a bunch of good hounds there. 1st Higher's Winston Cup (who finished with 5 wins on snow), 2nd Blackie's Proper Choice, 3rd Steve's Hare Tracer (he would end up finishing for IFC, and may have been an FTCH at this trial), 4th Sparkling Brook Toby (he finished for FC), and I believe NBQ was FTCH Concepcion Bay Whalen. I think Carl had video of this but said it didn't come out very well.

Another winners pack I got to see that was fantastic was Upper Hudson 13" Bitch Class in 2007, I judged that with Robbie Foster. Wow. That pack pounded from start to finish, after first series could barely move the hare. 1st was FTCH Whiteblaze Speedy (she would finish for IFC later that year), 2nd Maple Sugar Fay (who had won that trial twice before), 3rd Moulaison Saucy Dutchess (she needed a win to finish), 4th Adirondack Mtn Kayla (she finished and won the Better Beagling award that year), NBQ FTCH Stone's Daisy Duke. Here's a video of that winners pack, they hammered, we ended up kicking our snowshoes off and trying to keep up by running up and down the snowmobile trails: Upper Hudson 13" Bitch 2007

You can see many like relatives of many of the dogs that have been mentioned by looking at those pedigrees.

Edited by Carl, 12 January 2013 - 08:10 PM.
Added a few missing hounds to the database and created links for them

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#9 Haire-Bear

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:40 AM

I like the Birch Haven Bruiser line thru the old Walpole beagles of Manny Branco. All my hounds except 1 are all of this lineage with some Southside Bay/Buckshot Mr. Bill thru Sabattus Mtn Otis. The odd 1 out is out of Northway Tucker X Dead Branch bitch ( I assume with Slugger behind her). The hounds I will probably use on my future litters are Nemasket's Rabbit Stew (son of Otis), Dreahook Sabattus (son of stew), and Nemasket's Bob (son of stew,full brother to nemasket's grizzly bear and Nemasket's Madison Maddie). This line aint perfect and has some flaws but suit me just fine.
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#10 JohnPA

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

I notice a lot of those dogs Rob posted all have Ali Baba in their pedigrees. Rob, did you ever get to see Ali-baba run on snow?

#11 Rob Kane

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:46 AM

I was too young for that John. But I noticed that as well. If you look dogs like Doyland's Justice, Beaver Pond Branko, Speedy Sport, Higher's Winston Cup, Trapper Granger, who were all known for being excellent snow dogs all go back to Branko's Happy Pam who was a sister to Ali Baba. Actually they all go back to the same cross of Beaver Pond Vance to Happy Pam. I know that Chris Petteys and Brian Vadnais in New York line breed Justice and do very well in the snow.

FTCH Windy Hill Hammer was suppose to be a hell of a hound on snow. I didn't get the chance to see him run (that I know of), but everybody that saw him on snow said he was down right impressive. The common hound there would be Copper Boy.

Another line that people don't put together with being good on snow would be the Windbeam Mountain line...look at the results from those classic snow trials about 10-15 years ago at Upper Hudson and Adirondack, you'd be hard pressed not to find a Windbeam Mountain dog not taking a ribbon.
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#12 By The Way

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:43 PM

Rob , you had to go and mention Windbeam Mt.
My personal favorites. Papa's Jesse James x Windbeam Mountain Freckles,
FC Tallgrass Snap X Windbeam Mountain Nancy Louge. FC Windbeam MT's Grimshaws Bones x FC Windbeam TM Patti Magee. KAM's Windbeam MT Hope x Buck A Bear Willie The Way. (Do u see a pattern) I hunted hard on all snow conditions and temperatures with offspring from the above. They truly were gifts from the beagle gods. Fantastic noses, hard hunting, ran with control on the line and with the tongue. Two that passed through my kennel that were absolutely outstanding , one from Patti x Bones her name was Windbeam MT Lily Grimshaw. She was given to me by Bill Petterutti in spring of 96 at about 3mo old . At 8months old I took this hound on a solo hare hunt in fall of 96. Really was just a scouting trip. After a bit of a drive we entered an old favorite cedar swamp. Had perhaps six inches of snow. It began to sleet heavily. Ground became solid ice crystals in a matter of minutes. As I hid under a hemlock
for cover ,Lily managed to jump a hare along the creek bottom. She began to give tongue. This was the first time she had seen snow. I thought wow , ok. During the next 40 mins she moved that hare up and down that bottom crossing the creek several times. I stood jaw open, wanting to scream or perhaps cry. Oh yea, You bet I killed that one! This was an amazing accomplishment for any hound. She was truly an outstanding hound. Before she passed at young age of 5 was able to cross her with FC John Buck. That cross produced Americal's Rootbeer Float. She also possesed the talent of her mother.We spent spent so much time together ,I almost felt like this hound could read my mind. A snow hound supreme ! Thanks Bill
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#13 DJC

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

I have had the same experience John has had with the Eaton Brook bred dogs. I took for granted what they were able to do on snow and nasty weather I assumed all beagles were able to run like that in those conditions, it was until rather recently I realized not all hounds could handle snow and bad weather running conditions.
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#14 Mybeagles

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

Do the majority of the pups out of these crosses have the exceptional snow ability or is it 1 every couple litters? Does the cull rate go up with extra mouth?

#15 DJC

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

I think in general you will find some of the exceptional snow hounds maybe a little rough on sod (atleast for SPO) but I don't think mouth and snow nose or ability are related.

#16 Trial153

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

Billy P had big bitch that could run on snow, she earned a win at Upper Hudson a day I judged.

Sugar Maple Fay was a dandy on snow as well.


That big male Perry had Keno was a snow dog also, though I dont think he ran him in trials without snow.

Judged a little male at East Hampton that was a snow dog.....Robbie will know his name.

There was bitch that someone owned at East Hampton...little bitch, ran against her and seen her a couple time that was snow dog... Sadie? Robbie help me out.
Jim O from down in Pa had bitch that one Glendale, seen her look great on snow....not so much on bare ground but on snow she was a dandy.

FC Timberline Sweet Caroline ran on snow an made it look easy.....closer and cleaner then you could ever think possible. Most people think reaching and going out on snow...she never needed too she would stay on it like she was tied to it.

FC JD's Round Hills Mary run on days others couldn't even bark, and youd kill rabbits...Thats rabbits plural because after you killed the first she would find another asap. A great pack on Snow was FC JD's Round Hills Mary, FC Kane's Irish Sporting Wood and FC JD's Stella Performer...that trio had ton of rabbits shot in front of them on days that most dogs couldn't run themselves.
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#17 Rob Kane

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

Jim, you're right, York's Little Mtn. Sadie was another great one on snow. She placed in all but one snow trial she ever ran in. The one she didn't place in, she was up in age, and it was small pack option. She was bred once and only once to NLPC IFC Melanson Ranger Dan, those pups had places and wins on snow as well but didn't have the nose and the drive that their mother had. Sadie had three or four licensed wins and never really left the Westhampton area, she still needed points to finish when she passed. Her father was line bred Brad-Ju, her mother went back to Sure Shot Pete.

I do remember the conversation before Holyoke's snow trial when JIm told me that Sadie wouldn't win...I laughed at him. Sadie took second that day to FC Timberline Sweet Caroline

Sport'n Wood was decent on snow but when down with dogs with huge noses like JD's Roundhill's Mary or Nemo he would get beat. That pack of three dogs ran good that whole winter, never lost a rabbit, snow, sod, ice, crust, wind, below zero temps...we had a lot of fun.

#18 Haire-Bear

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:39 PM

If snow hounds get picked up in SPO-R....what does that say....hot nosed/tight mouth is what that is needed.....style over accomplishment....we all know where that will get ya.

#19 Mybeagles

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

Do the hounds you have seen with exceptional nose have it early or do they mature into it? I ran quite a bit with a Ranger Dan male that didn't really impress his derby year on snow, but the following winter he was impressive. On the contrary I had a little gyp with great snow nose from the day she started on tough snow at 4 months old. Also, do you think speed and nose are interlinked.
I love a big nosed dog but have never been able to consistently have enough nose in my kennel. These topics always capture my attention.

#20 Haire-Bear

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:30 PM

Some problems I've encountered is mouth, some directional problems- all probably linked to lack of brains. Some just junk, some can't handle the pressure and come un-glued in a pack-probably back to brains again or lack of.




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